Curse

Ugh · Aug 11, 2009, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vendetta Wish

Make ecto a very limited drop in UW and make up for it by having dungeon chests & Master area chests drop it and possibly make it a drop for Bosses to drop. That will leave UW for those who want the drops that do come out of there, along with the title, and some ecto. Bye Bye farmers. Ecto economy levels out!!

Or

1) Either change SF, nerf SF, make UW harder to farm with the addition of new skills/baddies, or do some combination of the previous ideas.
2) Increase drop rate of ectos a bit.
3) People still do UW for better drops, but it can't be SCed.
4) ???
5) Everyone dances and sings while flying unicorns vomit sunshine and fart rainbows.

Bloodgrave · Aug 11, 2009, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

If you disagree with S3, then you are a casual PvE player and you need not concern yourself with this thread or even SF at all.

I guess that kills the casual players don't have the time to clear UW via balanced argument then.

.

R_Frost · Aug 11, 2009, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Why shouldn't Protective Spirit be nerfed?

they cant or wont nerf prot spirit, nerfing that would bring a need to redesign alot of areas of the game, including alot of areas in HM. lets face it the game is 4+ years old with a possibility of GW2 in the future. leave GW1 alone. for as long as i remember the UW has always been about getting ecto, and a few weapons from the chests until other means came availible to get some of those weapons. i dont remember many looking for full party to clear UW announcements in ToA, its always been people looking to form whatever group to do some farm run. only FoW at one time actually got full groups to clear or farm until various farm builds were developed as more games and skills became availible. for what GW is as of now, may as well leave the farming builds alone, its not like we all play in a common instanced world where someone farming could screw up the drops or game for others that come along. as much as i avoided getting on the Ursan train, i almost think they need to put it back to the way it was along with the original version of spirit bond and maybe breathe some more life in the game if they decide redesigning the mobs to be better balanced isnt an option they want to tackle. i mean really, for those of us that have been playing more then the last year, whats left in the game but farm for some drop you may have always wanted, work on your titles or farm money to get the titles or venture into PvP if you havent already.

own age myname · Aug 11, 2009, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Today my brother walked into my room and watched me for a bit. After about 5minutes he asked on why I wasn't dieing (I was in UW with SF) and I told him SF makes you immune to all attacks.

First thing he said was "That's stupid" and he walked out.

SF is a broken mechanic. I believe it should be nerfed. But, the main thing I don't like with the SF nahsayers is that they think it'll get rid of SC by nerfing SF. I'm not 100% sure about this, but wasn't Obby tanks used in the first version of UWSC? Who says that won't rise again?

Linsey already stated this herself, they are going to work on fixing the areas rather then the skills.

Mokeiro · Aug 11, 2009, 06:33 PM // 18:33

I have the perfect fix for UW:

Add an enviromental effect in all of the UW.

"You suffer -1 health degen for each party member who is not in radar range"
So if all party is togheter no degen, but for each party member grayed out in party windows -1 health degen, thats way, the UWSC where each SF sin run to his area to clear it, must face -7 health degen in the worst case, that would force people to act togheter and slowdown speedclears.

Targren · Aug 11, 2009, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I guess it would be better to focus on the playstyle, as in "farming the game" and "playing the game", rather than labelling each player as either a "farmer" or a "player".
Still, a division of this sort has to be made since, so that we can define the relevant playerbase. The farming results just aren't in touch with "playing the game" so they seriously can not mater in defining what is achievable.

See, that's wrong. You're using a flawed, moralistic definition of "playing the game." Farming is no less "playing the game" than GvG, Going for Protector/Guardian title, or perma-pre. Farming is a subset of playing, NOT an alternative.

You also can't dichotomize the playerbase by "playstyle" either. My guild likes to farm. We also like to play other aspects of the game. Our "playstyle" changes hourly. I'll spend 20 minutes on a DSC with them, then we'll go and take our paragons through FoW (yeah, 8 paras. Slow but hella fun), then spend the next two hours working on capping the last 50 elonian elites I need, or helping guildies finish their protector/guardian titles (unless they are doing Eternal Grove HM. then they're on their own!), or helping them get their monk through Nightfall (just to use examples from this past weekend).

By focusing on splitting the playerbase in this fashion, you are, intentionally or not, specifically making the issue fractious instead of trying to find the "happy medium." Granted, that won't be good enough for the "I'm never coming back until Anet does what I want" crowd, but then again, nothing will ever be.

Making a fight out of it just makes flamefests burn(and I admit to being more guilty than many in participating in those...).

Quote:

The players' first step?
Farm the HELL out of SF. My guess is that A.Net will take the easy road and somewhere along the road nerf SF (what I find interesting is the super buff to Selfless Spirit. If we go back to a non-invincible tank, those monks will need to heal and prot their asses off! And it kinda seems that new Selfless is designed to help in that ...) which means we'll be left with content that you won't be able to participate in unless you have shitloads of cash, which you won't be able to make at that point anymore.
That's the practical advice.

Amen.

Guardian of the Light · Aug 11, 2009, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

I think they once said that they would not touch protective spirit, I remember vaguely some discussions from 2006... Cannot find link though

Most "invincible" solo builds are based on enchantments. So maybe instead of changing the enchantments as such more enchantment removals (or more severe ones) can be added to the overfarmed areas?

They DID do that.

UW has spirits (forget what they are called) that pop up and use rend enchantments. This forced 55 monks to use spell breaker and bring along a SS buddy and it slowed down farming a lot.

The problem it isn't working now?

SF blocks spells from working and rend enchantments can't get rid of SF, if they changed that SF so it could no longer block spells wouldn't be unusable for farming but they wouldn't be as strong in most areas.

Targren · Aug 11, 2009, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

They DID do that.

UW has spirits (forget what they are called) that pop up and use rend enchantments. This forced 55 monks to use spell breaker and bring along a SS buddy and it slowed down farming a lot.

The problem it isn't working now?

SF blocks spells from working and rend enchantments can't get rid of SF, if they changed that SF so it could no longer block spells wouldn't be unusable for farming but they wouldn't be as strong in most areas.

If it didn't block spells, then they need to nuke the damage reduction and the life loss, since it's going to be just a a mirror image of "Mist Form", or a weaker copy of Obby Flesh (No +armor, no slowing).

Easier and better fix would be to change the skill bars on the dying nightmares. When they were added (pre-perma), the 55s were the big deal, so rend did it.

Now that SF is unstrippable by them, they also know how to make monsters dual-class: give them Siggy of Disenchant, Expunge enchantments, or

Give Graspings "Rending Aura" and mess with their energy regen, and/or "Rending touch" and "Grenth's Aura" to make sure they never even get passed Chamber.

(Doing all of these things would probably turn UW into another DoA, completely OP in HM, but what the hell? Who cares if only the top 2% of players can do it, as long as the farmers can't, right?)

upier · Aug 11, 2009, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

See, that's wrong. You're using a flawed, moralistic definition of "playing the game." Farming is no less "playing the game" than GvG, Going for Protector/Guardian title, or perma-pre. Farming is a subset of playing, NOT an alternative.

You also can't dichotomize the playerbase by "playstyle" either. My guild likes to farm. We also like to play other aspects of the game. Our "playstyle" changes hourly. I'll spend 20 minutes on a DSC with them, then we'll go and take our paragons through FoW (yeah, 8 paras. Slow but hella fun), then spend the next two hours working on capping the last 50 elonian elites I need, or helping guildies finish their protector/guardian titles (unless they are doing Eternal Grove HM. then they're on their own!), or helping them get their monk through Nightfall (just to use examples from this past weekend).

By focusing on splitting the playerbase in this fashion, you are, intentionally or not, specifically making the issue fractious instead of trying to find the "happy medium." Granted, that won't be good enough for the "I'm never coming back until Anet does what I want" crowd, but then again, nothing will ever be.

Making a fight out of it just makes flamefests burn(and I admit to being more guilty than many in participating in those...).

If I am to argue that the current end-game content is out of touch with how the game is played, I first need to define how the game is played.
And that's why I have excluded farming and I am saying that farming can not matter. People that farm aren't on the lowest level of players that should still be allowed access to this sort of end-game content, so if the guys that are poorer than they are will have access to this content, they, having more resources, will ALSO have access to it.
If normal playing gives you enough resources, then there is no need to have a faster way of obtaining resources. Yet at the same time, that does not mean that there can not be a faster way.

The problem right now is that the faster way isn't a bonus that enables you to reach the goal faster. Realistically looking, it's the only way.

EDIT:
*waves at Linsey*

toocooltang · Aug 11, 2009, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

(Doing all of these things would probably turn UW into another DoA, completely OP in HM, but what the hell? Who cares if only the top 2% of players can do it, as long as the farmers can't, right?)

DOA is OP in HM for several reasons

1.) Area affects and no way to turn them off. If you add up all the different types of area affects it basically leaves you with tank and spank teams
2.) Long quests. To do DOA effectively you need to do all the quests from start to finish in order. Most of the quests are fairly complex and require a wide range of tactics
3.) DOA can easily be done NM with almost any setup and knowledgable players.

Seblip · Aug 11, 2009, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Personally, I don't think that ANet will nerd Shadow form or UWSC. Shadow Form is a key factor in why so many thousands of us play GuildWars. To nerf it, once again, would destroy a large proportion of potential farms and also suck the fun out of the game for many. UWSC is still a difficult thing, even with the permanent maintainence of SF. I see more failed runs than successes in PUGs and even Guild teams require a lot of practice and co-ordination.
The way I see it, GW is a dying game as it is, to nerf SF would just see ANet shooting themselves in the foot, several times. My other reason for my belief is simply that ANet have nerfed SF several times already and yet it is still maintainable, albeit more difficult/expensive. If they wanted to truly destroy the perma sin they would have by now.
Personally I'd be rather upset if they nerfed SF after recently discovering the joys of UWSC, I don't enjoy it because of the potential wealth, but because it's a true team game and provides an exciting challenge...especially during failing runs. xD

Targren · Aug 11, 2009, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The problem right now is that the faster way isn't a bonus that enables you to reach the goal faster. Realistically looking, it's the only way.

Put that way, it makes a lot of sense, and it's true and clear without being divisive. And I agree 100%. I've been worried about what I'm going to do with my girlfriend in a few weeks, since we've gotten her through NF and Proph, we're on HoS in eotn and halfway through factions... She's textbook casual player and, you're right, once she finishes them up, there's nothing for her to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toocooltang

DOA is OP in HM for several reasons

1.) Area affects and no way to turn them off. If you add up all the different types of area affects it basically leaves you with tank and spank teams
2.) Long quests. To do DOA effectively you need to do all the quests from start to finish in order. Most of the quests are fairly complex and require a wide range of tactics
3.) DOA can easily be done NM with almost any setup and knowledgable players.

1-2. Indeed. It's entirely unforgiving to the slightest slipup. "Balanced" is pretty screwed in there.
3. Yeah, that's why I specified HM (Didn't find Mallyx that easy, but it could be because I was with a braindead PUG my guild leader pulled me into... still need that damn statue)

Racthoh · Aug 11, 2009, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

UW has spirits (forget what they are called) that pop up and use rend enchantments.

That's my issue with Linsey's post on the wiki indicating that she'd rather see the zones reworked then nerf any skills. Their attempts to fix issues with zone designs have never worked. The Dying Nightmares were a lazy fix that didn't even work, as are the aforementioned spirits. AoE scatter had hilarious side effects causing enemies to flee when hit by something as simple as Ignite Arrows, but more the fact that all players had to do was bring an AoE snare and continue to abuse mass AoE builds. Their attempts to add challenge can be seen in DoA's original form with environmental effects and broken monster skills. Environmental effects I would argue are in some cases as bad as broken skills themselves because they restrict the usefulness of classes in certain areas forcing you to build against them using your professions, not your skillbar.

toocooltang · Aug 11, 2009, 10:24 PM // 22:24

If you dont want to nerf shadowform then the earth magic line needs some huge reworking. At 13 earth ( 12+1 from cons) You get the following in addition to not being able to be targeted by spells and all attacks miss that comes from shadowform

27 base damage reduction (stone flesh aura)
+55 armor and movement is 19% slower, the movement loss is cancelled by cons, so if you have personal cons or a IMS stance you move faster than normal. (armor earth)
And sliver armor which does 33dmg

If add the 3 basic perma skills plus the ones above this leaves you 2 spots open for whatever PVE skills you want.

Assuming that you dont have weapon mods you'll have 135 armor with 27 damage reduction beyond the armor, so anything besides TOUCH SKILLS will do effectivly 0 dmg. You can't be the target of any spells, and no attacks hit you. You can deal decent damage and you still have other options from your two PVE skills.

Consider you don't have to split your att pts across 3 or more lines that bar is pretty OP.

Guardian of the Light · Aug 11, 2009, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

That's my issue with Linsey's post on the wiki indicating that she'd rather see the zones reworked then nerf any skills. Their attempts to fix issues with zone designs have never worked. The Dying Nightmares were a lazy fix that didn't even work, as are the aforementioned spirits. AoE scatter had hilarious side effects causing enemies to flee when hit by something as simple as Ignite Arrows, but more the fact that all players had to do was bring an AoE snare and continue to abuse mass AoE builds. Their attempts to add challenge can be seen in DoA's original form with environmental effects and broken monster skills. Environmental effects I would argue are in some cases as bad as broken skills themselves because they restrict the usefulness of classes in certain areas forcing you to build against them using your professions, not your skillbar.

Indeed I agree.

I hate to wag my cane and say "back in the old days" but a year ago when I played Guild Wars you had a build that would only work in a few areas and it wouldn't clear it x10 faster. SF has basically taken over everywhere.

It makes sense to make an area more difficult if an single build is farming it in that area but not if that same build can farm wherever it wants to.

SlipknotOFA · Aug 12, 2009, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by R_Frost

leave it alone. after 4+ years and doing everything whats left in the game but farm the ecto's to get a set or more of FoW armor. not like the drops were ever really good in the UW. nerf one of the few things that alot of people do then you just lost some of the player base thats left in the game

I tottaly agree espeically with gw2 coming out in 2011 leave it be and let it rest RIP Guildwars ty for the fun. I know if they do any ext nerfing i can turn my back on gws I just got back from a 9 month break I can do 2 years easily.

DonCorleoneCS · Aug 12, 2009, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by toocooltang

If you dont want to nerf shadowform then the earth magic line needs some huge reworking. At 13 earth ( 12+1 from cons) You get the following in addition to not being able to be targeted by spells and all attacks miss that comes from shadowform

27 base damage reduction (stone flesh aura)
+55 armor and movement is 19% slower, the movement loss is cancelled by cons, so if you have personal cons or a IMS stance you move faster than normal. (armor earth)
And sliver armor which does 33dmg

If add the 3 basic perma skills plus the ones above this leaves you 2 spots open for whatever PVE skills you want.

Assuming that you dont have weapon mods you'll have 135 armor with 27 damage reduction beyond the armor, so anything besides TOUCH SKILLS will do effectivly 0 dmg. You can't be the target of any spells, and no attacks hit you. You can deal decent damage and you still have other options from your two PVE skills.

Consider you don't have to split your att pts across 3 or more lines that bar is pretty OP.

Sliver armor does not do 33 damage while under the effects of SF. You deal 33% less damage while SF is up and the damage with the ebon ward and BUH you're still below that 33 damage.

Honestly let people have the perma SF sin.....if you want to nerf it for being overpowered.....just nerf sliver armor. It's the 1 damage skill used in all A/E perma builds. SF states that all attacks miss, miss should be like when a ranger shoots an arrow and you side step away. It should not count as a block to trigger sliver armor.

and hai racthoh

Racthoh · Aug 12, 2009, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonCorleoneCS

Sliver armor does not do 33 damage while under the effects of SF. You deal 33% less damage while SF is up and the damage with the ebon ward and BUH you're still below that 33 damage.

With both in effect you'll hit more than 33 (although an Assassin would only have 13 Earth Magic for 31) unless you're on an armored target, even then that depends on the way the calculations are (I don't have an Assassin so I can't check). Otherwise there is something seriously wrong with their damage formulas.

toocooltang · Aug 12, 2009, 02:37 PM // 14:37

The fact still remains though. You can't be targeted by spells, all attacks miss, you have a ton of armor and damage reduction all the while you can steal deal pretty decent damage. Pretty sick bar IMO

X-Plosiv · Aug 12, 2009, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

And why would 8 perma sin just get together just to clear a dungeon? To get those valuable loot that sell for 50g ea? For the chance that one of them might get the rare end game chest that drops with 0.000001% chance? Most of the EOTN dungeons are ridiculously stressful for the crappy stuff they contain with the exception of extremely rare end chest items....I've known no one that actually want to repeat those dungeons with or without perma. Everyone I know avoid those dungeons like the plague and literally beg for 600/smite run when its necessary for Z-quest.

We do it for FUN. It`s fun running, and trying to get better time. To me, even when i do UWSC which i do alot, I don`t care if im some good ecto drop role as WASTE, or if im VALE. Tbh, I WISH SF get nerf! ...but, if you are in SC guild, 8x sinway is a nice thing to do, its fun